MacOSG:Liquid-Cooled Power Mac G5s leaking
Posted by Dennis Sellers 
Jun 11, 2006 at 11:08pm
By Dave Merten
Reports of liquid-cooled Power Mac G5’s leaking have been been popping up around the Net. Ryan Butterworth at Apple Discussions wrote, “So, we have six G5’s all ranging from Dual 1.8’s to a Quad G5. Came in to work today and my computer, a Dual 2.5, wouldn’t turn on. It would click on for about a third of a second and turn back off. Thought the power supply went on it. It was only a year and a half old. Disconnected everything and put it on the floor to try a different plug. I tipped the machine up to show a co-worker when another co-worker spotted liquid coming from the rear of the computer. NO WAY!! It was fine on Friday and untouched all weekend.”
I decided to do some more research and found a guy that had a unit 14 months old that leaked. He did not have AppleCare, but Apple agreed to fix it because it was less than 90-days out of warranty. A few months later, he had another unit leak. This time, the globs of glowing green goo got into his power supply and shorted it out. One of his co-workers described a bright flash and a loud buzzing crackle. Light-colored smoke poured out of the machine, and sizzling coolant dripped onto the aluminum handle. The “cheese grater” back grill had scorch marks. With both incidents, he said Apple was extremely cooperative and provided swift resolution by paying for the parts and labor required to restore the G5s back to working condition. He also noted that he did not lose any data on either machine.
So what’s going on here? It seems that the early 2.5 GHz liquid-cooled G5s shipped with Delphi radiators that were problematic. That may have been the reason Apple delayed shipment for three months after the liquid-cooled G5s were introduced. Apparently Apple may have been having problems with them from the beginning. So, what should you do if you own one? I would recommend pulling the side metal panel off periodically and checking the rear bottom floor of the computer for leaks. If you find a leak, get it serviced ASAP. Don’t keep using it. Also, Apple recommends cleaning the fluid up with
rubber gloves on. The fluid can irritate your skin.
Bottom line here, if you own a liquid-cooled Power Mac G5 less than a year old without AppleCare, I would highly recommend you purchase it ASAP if you plan on keeping it over a year. The cost to repair a leaky Power Mac G5 could run upward of $1,000.00 or more to replace the LCS (liquid cooling system) module.
(The graphic is from http://www.notmike.com)
The Mac Owners Support Group, aka MacOSG, was conceived in February, 2004 as the G5 Owners Support Group by Dave Merten, a former “Focus on Mac Support” guide at About.com. After purchasing a DOA Power Mac G5, and noticing on Apple Discussion Boards that people seemed to be having a lot of common hardware problems with them, Merten decided to open a support site for Power Mac G5 owners. He called it G5 Owners Support Group, registered the G5support.com domain and also applied to Apple to become an online Apple User Group.
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TimNiego Says:
My dual G5 fried at 15 months, taking out the power supply, both processors and main logic board to the tune of $2000. I purchased my G5 in late November of 2004.
Buy the Apple care if you can! It’s a deal compared to the repair bill.
Posted on June 12, 2006
nipri Says:
In Holland the consumer-rights-organisation has a standpoint in such cases: a manufacturer should always take steps if a produkt he sells fails within 3 years by some kind of designweakness. So if a liquid cooling systemfails big time within 3 years and there is a pattern with other cases, the manufacturer has to correct the design fault…
Posted on June 13, 2006
Chris Meisenzahl Says:
Yikes! That doesn’t look good at all. Stop by the AutoZone and pick up some Barr’s Stop Leak! ;-)
Posted on June 13, 2006
Adil Says:
That seems like ethylene glycol, same thing found in radiators and acs. Quite toxic. Not very good for you at all.
Posted on June 13, 2006
ejc Says:
Most cooling systems just use water that has some color added so it’s easier to see (regular car coolant I’d imagine to be too corrosive).
Is this really the case about this case? Real coolant?
I remember having a conversation with an apple store sales person saying, “what happens if it leaks”. Their response was, “they’ve never leaked before”.
Highly modified Sawtooth FTW!!!!
Posted on June 13, 2006
Bryce Says:
I’d just like to point out that coolant like that is both highly toxic and irrestistible to dogs and cats. Very small amounts can cause neurological- and kidney-damage to domestic pets, so if your tower sits where your pets can get to it, please be sure that they don’t discover any leaks before you do.
Posted on June 13, 2006
alpha Says:
It probably is ehtylene glycol. That’s what most water cooled pc systems use to prevent corrosion and biological growth. Not really toxic unless you drink it. I guess for some people it can cause irritation. It’s also not toxic until it gets digested by enzymes and broken down. It gets broken down by the same enzymes that break down alcohol so a viable method of not being poisoned by it is to drink alcohol, competitive inhibition.
Posted on June 13, 2006
Coadey Says:
The earlier G5’s liquid cooling system, like the one in this article, were not sealed:
http://homepage.mac.com/thunderaudio/.Pictures/2.51024/IMG_4394.jpg
The Dualcore/Quad G5’s released in Fall 2005 have an improved, sealed cooling system (notice the cured sealant coming out of each fitting):
http://homepage.mac.com/thunderaudio/.Pictures/WebQuad/Top.jpg
That means the current G5’s shouldn’t exhibit this problem.
Posted on June 13, 2006
Joe Says:
re: ejc
Why would standard car antifreeze be corrosive? It has to sit inside of an aluminum radiator, attached to a steel engine block, with at least a few different kinds of sealant. If it were corrosive, every modern car on the road today would be breaking down regularly because of antifreeze gone bad.
Posted on June 13, 2006
MrEvil Says:
Correction, most windows PCs that are liquid cooled by enthusiasts just use water and an algicide additive. Some folks do use Ethylene Glycol (don’t know why really, if you use Distilled water and an algicide you’ll be fine, most pumps have non metallic impellers in them). Some enthusiasts use Propylene Glycol which is non-toxic, they also use purpose made cooling fluids like Fluid XP which is non conductive. As for most OEM built Windows machines, you don’t have to worry, the coolant in their heatpipes has a really low evaporation point and will evaporate out of the pipe before it could ever get all over the PC.
Posted on June 13, 2006
zappa Says:
wow, looks an awful lot like mountain dew to me
Posted on June 13, 2006
Maryly Snow Says:
I didn’t get anywhere with Apple today. Our G5 is exactly 2 months out of warranty, sitting in an authorized repair shop at the University of California, Berkeley (etimates for repair $1407 to $2200 depending on whether the logic board got fried by the leaking coolant). Bob the product specialist merely intoned repeatedly that it was out of warranty, that what I read about Apple being cooperative is just hearsay since it wasn’t published on an authorized Apple site. My small image library of architecture and the allied arts runs on an extremely tight, small budget. To loose a $2600 computer that is 14 months old with no satisfaction is disheartening. If anyone can give me advice on how to succeed getting Apple to cover the repairs on my G5, please let me know! My case # is 64316454.
Posted on June 13, 2006
Maryly Says:
Good news! After I posted the above complaint and my case number, I called Apple in Cupertino, CA, no Apple Support, but Apple HQ. There told Zac in Customer Relations my sad tale, including the fact that I posted my unsatisfactory outcome on a Mac blog. After lots of consultations with other folk at Apple, Zac told me that Apple will repair our G5, and even called the authorized Apple repair guy with the repair authorization. Part of the reason for making the repair to my G5 and some other G5s, he said, was that they were in use by non-profit educational institutions.
Posted on June 13, 2006
El Diablo De Verde Says:
Good for you! I’m glad they resolved this to your satisfaction. I use Macs and sometimes, the initial response from Apple representatives is frustrating and disappointing. Glad that call to HQ did it.
Blogs are really forcing some companies to rethink their customer service strategies.
Posted on June 13, 2006
Rob Harrison Says:
As with all internet-born articles, this information should be taken lightly by any users with a liquid-cooled G5 system. I work on one of the busiest service providers in my area, and we have never yet seen a G5 with leaking liquid from the Processor.
5 people with the same issue throught the entire world does not amount to a ‘known problem’ with a unit, and neither does if someone who happens to post onto a mac news website has it happen to him. It’s rare, but like earthquakes, they do happen occasionally :)
Posted on June 13, 2006
rebturtle Says:
Okay guys, let’s put this to rest. Most watercooled systems use a mixture of ethylene glycol and distilled water, just like you’d use in a car. However, “antifreeze” has many more beneficial properties than merely being anti-bacterial.
Ethylene Glycol;
a. Raises the boiling point and lowers the freezing point of water
b. Lubricates all moving parts of the cooling system
c. Inhibits bacterial/microbal growth
d. INHIBITS corrosion, EXCEPT when exposed to air
e. Increases the thermal conductivity of water
f. Looks cool
g. Is highly poisonous to animals, though it has an attractive taste and odor to them
You don’t need a lot of antifreeze in a computer watercooling system. A ratio of as little as 10:1 distilled water and antifreeze will give you all the effectiveness that your system can utilize, wheras an automobile uses closer to a 50/50 mixture.
Posted on June 13, 2006
USGS Says:
Earthquakes are hardly rare. There have been 38 magnitude 5 or greater earthquakes in the last fortnight. Check it out.
Posted on June 14, 2006
Magic Dragon Says:
This article is like so old news, it’s just a few isolated incidents of leaks, big deal.
1: Rehash old article with photo
2: Troll for hits to MacOSG.com
3: Create a lively thread for whiners and lawyers to sue Apple.
4: Get kickbacks and still remain a authorized online Apple User Support Group.
5: Profit!!
I never much liked MacsuimNews anyway.
Bye.
Posted on June 14, 2006
Tom Says:
I don’t know how isolated these are. It would be good to get a definitive estimate of the failure rate on these liquid-cooled G5s. We do not have many at our site yet at least two have leaked in the past year.
Posted on June 14, 2006
Wesley Bohannon Says:
Is there any way to determine if a particular model is at risk. I have a dual proc G5. I was thinking perhaps something in system info or physical tags on the machine?
Posted on June 14, 2006
Steve Buchan Says:
Does love the taste of Glycol - and they die. Can you image a dog dieing as a result of your mac leaking.
wow - what a lawsuit.!
/s
Posted on June 14, 2006
TK Says:
rebturtle Says:
“Ethylene Glycol;
a. Raises the boiling point and lowers the freezing point of water
b. Lubricates all moving parts of the cooling system
c. Inhibits bacterial/microbal growth
d. INHIBITS corrosion, EXCEPT when exposed to air
e. Increases the thermal conductivity of water
f. Looks cool
g. Is highly poisonous to animals, though it has an attractive taste and odor to them”
a. who cares. the coolant in a watercooled system never reaches boiling temps or frezing temps.
b. who cares. the pumps used are designed not to need this. it isnt a car. they’re more like fish tank pumps.
c. true, but a couple drops of other products do this aswell
d. yes, but not a problem aslong as cooling block and radiator are both copper or whatever the metal of choice is. pump is plastic. use distilled water.
e. FALSE!! do some more research. “Watter Wetter” by RedLine does this though.
f. yeah, it does look cool
g. yep, it is poisonous.
So why are they using it? dunno. its a mac. its doesnt have to make sense to sell.
Posted on June 15, 2006
BillA Says:
I read a comment from a Delphi employee that the coolant has a terrifically low pH. If Apple says “wear gloves” they do so for a reason. It is much more than glycol.
Posted on June 16, 2006
DWR Says:
Our G5 Dual processor 2.7 GHz coolant system leaked and blew smoke right after the warranty expired. Followed your advice and decided we had nothing to lose by calling AppleCare. Repair cost for power supply, microprocessor and labor about $1200. Apple decided to repair it at no charge. We are going to purchase the AppleCare for 2 more years of coverage.
Posted on June 16, 2006
WCUser Says:
no additive is better than pure water for thermal conductivity.
Posted on June 17, 2006
rebturtle Says:
If water is either frozen, or steam, it has significantly degraded its efficiency at transferring thermal energy in a closed loop system. I didn’t say that all of the properties would be relevant to an Apple watercooling setup…
Posted on June 17, 2006
Nexxo Says:
In response to deepkid’s query: liquid-cooled Windows PCs generally don’t have this problem because the liquid cooling setup is an aftermarket addition, often hand-built and maintained by the owner him/herself with obsessive care, rather than presented as a factory produced closed-box, no-maintenance solution. Choice of coolant tends to be distilled or de-ionised water with a 5% additive solution, the best of which currently is Zerex Racing, which has displaced Water Wetter as a favorite.
Low conductivity/corrosion solutions are FluidXP or MCT-5 and MCT-40 (basically a low viscosity mineral oil mix). A totally non-conductive, non-corrosive alternative is Fluorinert (a perfluorcarbon), but this is pricey. On the upside, it is a true no-maintenance solution.
As an experienced PC liquid cooler (Fluorinert), my opinion is that the problem is not with the seals as such, nor with the liquid. I do note from Coadey’s pictures that the loop incorporates no expansion/header reservoir however. As the system warms up, the coolant will expand, and although we are talking about small volume differences here, in such a tight, small loop there is little room for the liquid to go. Repeated expansion/contraction with repeated switching on/off of the computer may eventually stretch and weaken the tubing fit and clamps, and result in the liquid forcing itself out under thermal expansion. The enhanced sealing is one way of stopping this, but adding a small expansion tank would have been another.
Posted on June 18, 2006
Sled Says:
Ethylene Glycol/Water mixture inside of a cars engine IS corrosive. It becomes this way due to electrolysis. The cars electrical system + the different metals creates electric current in the coolant that eats away at parts. GM has had a big problem with gaskets since the late 90s in their cars and trucks that many point towards electrolysis in the Dex-Cool coolant. As an auto tech, we recommend flushing your cooling system with a flush chemical and new coolant every 30K miles if not more often. I have personally seen steel cylinder heads where the insides of the water passages were eaten away by coolant. And for the person who comment about there being the different metals in the cooling system of a car, THAT IS A LARGE PART OF WHAT CAUSES ELECTROLYSIS. The presences of, copper, steel, and aluminum in the same system causes electrolysis, add in a bad ground here or a little too much current somewhere and you are asking for trouble.
Posted on June 18, 2006
Mick Says:
I wonder if mac has thought about using a dielectric fluid like that
cool stuff from 3M???? I think it is called Fluorinert. Cray has
cooled their supercomputers for years with this stuff and it is in
direct contact with the electronics! On the 3M website they even talk
about a more environmentally friendly version of dielectric fluid
called Novec. I think it has the same health and safety profile as
the Fluorinert but it has a very low global warming potential. If it
leaked in the mac it would just evaporate and not harm any of the
electronics or any people or pets.
Mick
Posted on June 27, 2006
David Says:
“I wonder if mac has thought about”
Mac? Mac who? Mac cosmetics? Oh… you mean Apple.... ;)
Posted on July 05, 2006
Elly Poppe Says:
Just my 2 cents on the frequency of this problem - I bought 5 G5s in November of 2004 - 3 of those 5 have had a coolant leak in the last several months - $1000 a piece for repairs - seems like it’s a real problem to me.
Posted on July 10, 2006
Nexxo Says:
@ Mick: the Novec HFE-7000 series is indeed inert and non-conductive, and is offered as another heat transfer alternative besides Fluorinert. The issue is again cost… It would easily add $100,-- to the price of a G5. Still, considering the overall cost of the machine, a small price to pay.
Posted on July 21, 2006
sbSLC Says:
We have three G5 computers in our lab, one dual 2.5 and two dual 2.7.
One dual 2.7 quit in a cloud of smoke with popping/crackling sounds this week and when I opened it I found a crusty residue under the right rear corner of the processor tower. I appears the coolant leaked out and when I woke the unit from sleep it fried the processors (although the exact diagnosis is pending). Apple has been very cooperative with figuring it out and fixing it.
I thought I had better check the other two machines, not expecting to find anything. The dual 2.5 is fine, but the other 2.7 had a very similar crusty puddle under the processor tower. I appears to be leaking as well and we will not be starting it up again until it has been repaired.
Earthquakes are not really rare, and it may be that G5 leaks are not either.
Posted on August 02, 2006
Lawrence Krupp Says:
Here is the Apple document pertaining to the cooling liquid used in these systems. It is water + propylene glycol and it is NOT toxic.
http://images.apple.com/environment/resources/pdf/powermacg5_msds-082004.pdf
Posted on August 08, 2006
Old Al Says:
Hey, I just dicovered my dual processor 2.7 is leaking green stuff, I didn’t purchase apple care becuse Mac don’t have problems and not I am out thousand to fix my CPU. What recourse do I have, is the a class action suite?
Posted on September 26, 2006
Dave Merten Says:
First of all, DON’T keep running it. Next, call Customer Relations at Apple and see what they will do for you. 1-800-APL-CARE #3
Posted on September 26, 2006
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Dennis Sellers
Dennis has been a newspaper editor/reporter (seven years) and teacher (seven years). He has over 4,000 magazine, newspaper and online articles to his credit. He has also covered the Mac and tech industries for over a decade for such online publications as MacCentral, MacMinute and now MacsimumNews.
deepkid Says:
Oh my. Has this been a problem with liquid-cooled windows desktops as well, or unique to Delphi and Apple? Thanks.
Posted on June 12, 2006